Podcast: Second Babies with Guest, Doula Natalie Meddings

Second Babies with Guest, Doula Natalie Meddings

Season 2, Episode 1

How do second labours differ from firsts?

How do you prepare older children?

How do you prepare after both a wonderful or a difficult birth first time?

Natalie  Meddings is an experienced doula of 20 years, Author of my FAVOURITE birth book 'How to Have a Baby' and 'Why Homebirth Matters' and you may remember her from Series One, where talked about Doulas and Understanding Labour.

When our second baby was born last year, WE did our birth preparation in Natalies safe and knowledgable hands; so there was no one else I wanted to have this conversation with.

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TRANSCRIPT

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Ready to meet today's guest?

Hi, everybody.

Welcome back to The Birth-Ed Podcast.

This episode, we are going to be taking a look at second babies, or certainly subsequent babies expecting a baby for the second plus time.

And I am joined by our now first ever repeat guest on the podcast, which is exciting.

We have got the wonderful post-natal and birth doula of almost 20 years, Natalie Meddings.

Natalie has also written two incredible books, and it's just a general all-round inspiration in the birth world.

So Natalie, thank you so much for joining me again.

Thank you for having me.

It is very exciting for me as well because I've never been back on.

Back on.

It's great.

We definitely needed to chat to you about this.

So, I mean, there's a whole heap of stuff that we can kind of talk about and hopefully cover.

And there's all sorts of considerations that might come up when you are pregnant with your second baby.

So we'll try and touch on as many of these as we can.

So when you are working with families that are expecting their second baby, what tend to be the kind of biggest concerns that come up versus that potentially come up with people expecting their first baby?

There's a kind of conflict in the sense that I arrive at one of those first meetings or first chats.

And I will often already have quite a good sense that they have every good reason to be confident.

They will feel very often the very opposite.

My first job and their first job really is to kind of work out, if they've had a complicated first birth, which is often, which can often be the case when people come to find a do-er.

Their confidence is knocked and they're not quite intact in the way that they would have been the first time, where first time people have a lot of, you know, natural optimism, why shouldn't they?

Or a bit of fear and stuff.

But at least they're coming in with a blank page, you know, they're coming in with a clearer expectation and hope.

And they feel they can shape that.

But often with second time ones, there's a bit more of a feeling of, or parents, there can be a feeling of everything from obviously trauma, because they might have had a kind of very difficult first birth.

Or more commonly, a hunch that it could have been better, but they don't know why.

Or it went really, really well.

And this is really also very common.

I can't get lucky second time.

Yeah, I definitely get both of those working with parents.

Either the like, it's got to be different than last time, and I'm going to throw everything at it to really take control of it and feeling out how they are able to do that.

And that could come out in a number of different ways, I suppose.

Or yeah, it's the very much, it was great.

There's no way we're going to get lucky the second time.

This is when it's all going to go wrong.

And so I suppose that's where the worries or the insecurities show up differently second time than perhaps when you've never given birth before.

I don't want to sound cocky, but I've got quite good at it.

Because of course, it's doula, like most of our work is this really, because often people don't think of getting a doula until they kind of know what they were missing the first time.

So we often, that's one of our, when you're becoming a doula and you're gaining experience, it's where you get your most experience in some respects.

So by the time you get 20 years in, like me, I suppose I very much almost have to kind of slightly go through the motions with people a bit.

In a kind way, always would, being, I have to be very careful not to rush them and go, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's going to be fine, it's going to be fine.

But I actually know it's going to be really fine.

Like, really, really, let's just give like seven verys there.

It's very, very, so, so, so likely it's going to be a simple birth.

But if I rush them to that, they would probably go into a kind of disbelief or, you know, you're just saying that.

So I have to be careful and sort of almost guide them to it.

And I do this thing called doula detective work, which is the easiest way to get to the basics because you have to reset them, really, and reset parents whose confidence is knocked, but even reset the, oh, I can't possibly get lucky, to reset them in a way that takes them back to a very, very level playing ground, which is what we do first time, basic biology.

So how do we do that?

You can't get to the clear, open space of basic biology if you've already got some difficult history.

So the slightly different way I work with second time parents is if I feel that there is something that needs unpacking, we will first do a session to, I mean, I'm not very much a fan of that word debrief.

I find it's a bit business-like sounding.

But effectively, it is literally like detective work.

So I will get them to almost forensically tell me their story.

And of course, most parents, both have their own version, of course, but mothers particularly, you can see their eyes move in a way that they're really there, they're back there, you know, even whatever happened, whether it went well or it didn't go so well.

And it lets them sort of set it aside, it clears their body out so they can kind of get ready to move through to this new pregnancy.

So even if it's just to lay it all out, and you have to be careful, of course, if people have been really traumatized, that you're not sort of really triggering them really.

But you know, you get deft at it, yeah.

But there's a huge relief at the end of that session.

And sometimes I just do it on the telephone, even when they give a phone up for a first meeting.

And then you get a message back saying, oh, I just feel clearer.

And please don't think I'm saying it's something that I do that's clever, it's really just listening.

Yeah, and it's about often when people tell the birth story, say of their first baby to anybody, you kind of get almost like the kind of the highlight reel or the kind of the factual event moments of the birth, which isn't really unpacking what it felt like to give birth to your baby in whatever way that happened.

And that's, I suppose, the difference in terms of when you're unpacking that, rather than saying, and then we went into hospital, and then I had a vaginal examination, and then we went to the labour ward, and then I was on the bed.

It's about, you know, what did you feel like at each of those moments?

And how did you feel about those things happening rather than simply kind of what happened?

And I certainly find working with people that are kind of preparing for their second babies, that it's, you know, it's all about what it felt like.

What happened is kind of irrelevant, really.

I mean, not in every instance, but in a lot of instances, like the actual unfolding of the birth isn't the thing that has stuck with them or?

And they've often got like a record-like level groove to them now by telling the story, which they will have done maybe for two years, maybe three years, four years.

They have almost a set piece description.

So they'll say, I'm limited to this, I'm limited to this.

And then they'll get, you'll get this kind of startle.

Oh, you want to know how I felt, you know, it's like, oh, right, okay.

That's how they start to understand what might have been missing, for example.

I was with this family, she was describing this feeling of waiting for things to begin.

I don't know why she was on her, can't remember now why she was on her, she was on her antenatal ward and things had picked up and she was in labour, but everyone was ignoring her and saying, no, you're not in labour in that very typical way, we're quite commonly.

And so she was pacing around, unhoused is the word I want to say, you know, that is the most shocking situation for any woman in labour to be in, unhoused, unnested, no place to put yourself, no place to sequester yourself, no place to be, you know, going inward.

So she was wandering these corridors and all she wanted to tell me about was the next moment, the next moment of when she got to the birth centre or the labour ward.

But I said, no, no, no, no, I want to know that when you were walking the corridors in a dressing gown, feeling almighty shifts of pressure inside your bum and back, what were you thinking?

And she went and she blurted a cry.

And she said, I just wanted to roam to myself, you know, and she just, I just wanted to be looked after, but not, she didn't mean looked after clinically.

She just went, can I just have some space to be, you know, and that opened the floodgates.

And actually, she started to have a home birth after that.

That's what kind of made her realize that it wasn't that complicated.

So those conversations, they can quickly change from being quite, you know, I don't know, like sad really.

And sometimes people are very happy about the birth of their baby, but they're like, well, I felt a bit let down or I didn't quite feel heard.

And it can go very quickly to understanding what was missing.

It's not that complicated to solve.

So yeah, so they excite me, actually.

I get very excited about Second Mother, yeah, because it's a reconnecting up to their natural circuitry, which they have got a lot of faith in now.

They've raised a child, you know, so they've got a lot of natural sort of, okay, well, I have raised a baby to toddlerhood or beyond.

And so there is a lot of confidence to draw on second time, but you have to find those ways in.

Yeah, and sometimes we don't, I mean, for quite a lot of people really, we don't really reflect deeply on that first birth experience until actually until you're pregnant again, and then you go, hang on, I've got to do it again.

What are the choices that I want to make that might be the same?

And what are the bits kind of specifically that we don't want to do it again?

And say, we met with you when we were pregnant with our second, mainly sort of a space for my husband's sake, he wanted to do some kind of birth preparation that wasn't me rabbiting on at him and telling him exactly what I needed him to do.

And it was again, it was really nice to have that space to reflect not just with me, but for him as well.

And I think he said something in that space that was a conversation that we had, you know, in four and a half years had never had about that.

His experience of going through that birth.

And I think it was something like he could quite clearly see that I was in active labour and we were in that situation of them going, Oh, no, no, you got a long time to go.

And he, I think, went out and said, you know, tried to kind of be the advocate going, somebody's got to do something to help.

We need some more support now than just being on this antenatal ward.

And I think somebody had said to him, and again, this didn't get revealed until we were very close to approaching the second birth.

Somebody told him, go and get a coffee.

As though he was the one that was panicking and that there wasn't anything.

And sort of, and he was saying, you know, that was really unhelpful to me in that moment.

And I didn't feel trusted to know what was going on, even though I did feel like I did.

And so sometimes just that validation, I think that you get through really unpicking that first experience.

And that went on to shape his opinions about how he felt, because we had our home birth second time, but feeling that he was like, yeah, I would feel much more comfortable out of that hospital environment.

Because for me, and I know it's not really up to the partner what happens in the birth, but if you are going into it and you want to be doing it together, it is important that you both feel kind of like safe and prepared.

And so being able to kind of unpick that from both of your perspectives is really valuable before you give birth the second time.

It's very different actually, because of course, in the wrong hands, can you see how in the wrong preparation hands, teaching or classes or books, can you see how mother may go, oh, okay, I don't want to do it like that again, and I want to make a new decision.

Sometimes that would be home birth or doula or this.

There's new add-ons, right?

But the partner will have remembered the first experience in a different way.

And without the right confidence or understanding of what happened, can easily go, well, hang on, it went wrong the first time, why on earth are you now making it even more risky?

And that's really heartbreaking because that's just a question of interpretation and being guided them to understand.

And then sometimes people's whole second birth plans can be shaped about part of the fear and quite understandable part of the fear because they're feeling for their wife or their partner, what on earth are we going to, we want to go more into the unpredictable?

And they still don't understand, because the thing that second time around people aren't always aware of is that they can travel the two years post first birth, really blaming their own body.

And first of all, even if it is a biological impasse that the first labour hit, there should be no blame because that's just, nature is not concerned with our plans and it just sometimes happens.

But very, very commonly, very commonly, it will have been very subtle reasons that derailed the birth, not always the big interventions.

People don't realize it's the earlier stuff that can often derail.

And if somebody doesn't understand it, the partner can labour under this illusion, I'm so forgive the pun there, but you know, labour under the illusion of, well, birth doesn't work, you know, clearly, why not now, we need a doctor, you know, and that can be so frustrating for the mother who has this hunch that if she could tweak and make the plan anew, she'll get that feeling of whole satisfaction, the circuitry just joining up.

And she sort of knows in her heart what she needs, but she can now be doing battle with a very traumatized partner who's like, no, that was awful the first time, why on earth are we going to do a repeat?

So that's where you need a second opinion, experienced independent midwife, or even just having a conversation with a person you can get access to in a nature's midwife just to talk these things through, can you?

So the only way to tell me...

Yeah, I mean, sometimes I know if people have had like real, real traumatic first births or real difficulties, and they are facing like a bigger decision, you can sometimes book in appointments with consultant midwives or kind of specific birth choice clinics, which again can sometimes be hit and miss depending on who you who you're actually meeting.

But I know it's particularly in our local hospital, the consultant midwife is absolutely fantastic and really will give you the time of day to go, like these are your options.

And so, but equally having a conversation with somebody like one of us, not from a kind of not giving medical advice perspective, but just talking through what happened, what the options might be and identifying what it is that people want from the second birth.

Because sometimes there is a real pull for physiological birth and actually how can you achieve that.

Often when people have had a difficult first birth, I often am kind of counselling people through the decision, what they really, really want back is control.

And the kind of getting far away from what happened last time in kind of speech marks.

People tend to be quite frequently, also with people that might have had cesareans first time, or particularly kind of unplanned cesareans, are often choosing between the kind of home birth, real minimal intervention option, or the planned cesarean, I have a lot of control over how this is going to unfold situation.

And both of those can be positive ways to have your second baby.

And it can really help you to be able to take the opportunity.

And sometimes that is offered, certainly more if it was particularly complicated first time, but if it was not on paper, I suppose, complicated, sometimes those services can be more difficult to access.

So potentially, if you're able to kind of seeking out support from somebody.

So the two keys, I would say, second time are restoring trust.

And one of the keys to restoring trust is to be heard, whatever that is.

And I think that that's what I mean.

You can easily, as a sort of confident and experienced doula, you could easily jump in and go, no, you're going to be fine.

And that can equally not be listening.

And so I have frequently, there's one person comes to mind and she hears as she recognizes herself.

And she came second time having had a fast, but really like didn't just hated it, even though it's fast and simple on paper her birth first time, very on how to bound herself in the lure of an anti-native ward, practically pushing, you know, no one listening, no one believe all that.

And so very much wanted an epidural.

Now I am my doula heart and if she gave birth that quickly, you're going to give birth quickly again.

But I knew she just really said, no, I only want you to get me the epidural.

So there's no way I'm going to try and persuade her out of that.

And we went along.

I wasn't sort of playing along.

I mean, I believed it myself.

I will aim for that for you, but let's see.

I made sure I addressed the fact that it might not happen, because she might have a baby really quickly.

And then we've gone to a third and we've done the same thing again.

Both times, we do the plan that gives her full control, which is she wants to know that she's heading to Labour Ward or to have a epidural.

That's her plan in her head.

Both times, I meet her, quite quickly we're in to hospital, by the way, I wouldn't even attempt to tell her to have a baby at home, even though potentially she is very much a candidate for that because she has such quick birth, but it just doesn't do it for her.

And so it goes back to this, listen, listen, listen to her, right?

And so I just go along with it and we plan for the medicine, for the anesthesia.

She then completely switches the moment she sort of leans against me in the hospital corridor and she's quite, I don't know, I don't know.

And then she just flips and she goes into this deep trust of, she connects with her baby and she just does these very, I want to call it almost like a slight, long, long contained contractions that drive her babies down and through in such a clean way, I can't even describe it, like sort of massive deep breath in and very internalized power.

And they just come like incredible.

But even to that last minute, I'm not going to say you don't need an epidural, don't be silly, because that would not be listening.

And she found her trust in the things that she wanted were available if she wanted them.

Yeah, she had control.

So what she hates and I would say all women hate more than any human being hates is helplessness.

And for her, not knowing there's an option to have an anesthesia is just too scary.

So we just go through that, and we listen and we respect that and we potentially provide it.

We never need it.

So it goes to that level.

You wouldn't sort of go home and go, oh, you just need to have your baby at home, because that isn't always the case.

So the other thing I wanted to say, though, that I think suddenly occurred to me, we haven't made the foundation point of, and I'm sure you'll agree with this, is it's bizarre to me that the distinction isn't made between first and second and mom's very marked parent.

By the system, by maternity care, it astounds me.

You will occasionally get in a midwife appointment, a midwife will say, well, you know, it tends to go quicker, or it may go, or, you know, second births are quite, quite short.

But it's never decisive.

Nobody will actually bet on it, you know, and I don't know why, because what I do know why, but it makes me sad, is that basically, if you lead a second time mother through the same, you don't adapt her plan at all, you don't build her up.

Usually, I find when you go to hospital, you see an awful lot of second time moms having six hour, eight hour labors.

You hear about that commonly.

Well, I've never seen that in 20 years.

So what am I doing?

Nothing.

And what are you doing?

I mean, you know, we know second time births, we had one this morning, three hours is probably the average, I'd say one hour, very common and anything beyond that.

And by this, I'm talking acts of labour, you know, with me and me and my doula partners would be like, Oh, that was a long one, you know, a six hour labour for a second time, you're like, Oh, what was wrong?

You know, now why, to my mind is like, why doesn't the system, why don't they prepare with it in that way?

Because it would give them an awful lot of confidence.

But you see, it self fulfills because if you've already planted the seeds of it could be like last time, we don't know.

We can always just say a little caveat and say, look, it could be, could be, but it's unlikely because that's the reality.

And so obviously, sometimes babies surprise us.

But in terms of the research, like even very good research, we know that intervention rates are significantly lower second time.

Labours are significantly shorter second time.

And again, you know, real life data, just ask them, real life data.

I mean, just look around.

So even if I get this sense, we very much hedge our bets.

It's a very British thing, I think, as well.

It's like, oh, best not do that.

So women aren't sort of given this the heads up, really.

But then, of course, it self-fulfills.

Because if you've already kind of said, oh, it could be like this, it could be like that, that they end up, they do.

I remember I used to think that on that dreadful programme, Born Every Minute, you'd often see any programme about birth doesn't seem to ever mention this.

It's just like, oh, well, I'm having a second baby, I'll head for the same epidural I had the first time.

Oh, my God, talk about what not only a waste of a labour ward, but a waste of petrol even getting in to a hospital, where most women should just be told the birth study, 2011, you know, showing that it's actually more risk for a second time mum to go to hospital with an uncomplicated pregnancy.

I mean, how did that get covered in the press when it happened?

How long ago is that?

Because that's 10 years ago now, that unbelievably powerful message, it is safer at home, as in it's actually more safe than hospital, for a second time mum and a second baby to be at home and to be at hospital.

That is newsworthy beyond belief, but it didn't get, it got a kind of vague mention in somewhere, fourth paragraph of the second page of the newspaper.

And that is so powerful, but not many people, I think, even to this day, really understand that.

No.

You know, again, going back to the forensics, nobody breaks it down.

Maybe we should talk about that.

Why is it easier?

The word I want to use is an agility to the second, but the birthing body second time.

Yeah.

Agility.

It's like the capability is more, it's tried and tested, isn't it?

So the body gets on with it.

And I think from a kind of emotional perspective, if you have had the kind of good preparation and the trust building, the self-trust building, then, you know, probably running your second marathon is easier because you can go, well, I've done it.

Like, I know I can do it.

I know what this sensation feels like.

And I know what was helpful in that.

And it won't be exactly the same things that are helpful each time, but it might be quite similar things.

And so that in terms of kind of managing the emotional journey of, of labour, plus if it is then surprisingly shorter, that is also like a huge benefit.

Yeah, you know what is also difficult is if you go on and on to women, oh, it's going to be really quick.

That was also not helpful.

Because I remember this woman who gave birth in the car park first time.

This was 12 years ago when I was teaching yoga.

And I always remember her story.

And hopefully people will hear this and really take this on.

So she was like, oh, I'm a person who births quickly.

She got told that and told that and told that.

So she did get told, you know, you're going to be giving birth really quickly this time.

And so the moment she had her very first feeling, she got childcare sorted, sat in a darkened room and bounced on the ball for two days, right?

Because and didn't go in.

She then came back to yoga to tell her story.

And she said, I felt short changed.

It wasn't quick at all.

And I said, hang on, how long was labour?

What do you mean?

I said, labour is the bit where it takes you over.

Oh, two hours.

But her build up was two days because she was so over thought it.

She was tense.

She was having crampy waves, but they just went on and on and on and on.

She was so worried about getting it wrong, going in at the wrong time, that she basically got into quite a stage fright.

So that's an example.

You can't go on and on to women.

It's going to be quick.

Because that's another form of helplessness.

Yeah.

Equally, sometimes comparing, if there was intervention in the first birth, say like an induction or something, sometimes comparing that to then what might be a physiological birth that starts spontaneously, that is also not helpful because you can't be sure what part the induction played to the speed of that birth, including if it's incredibly long.

You know, if you have a three-day labour that was an induction, it may have been three days because it was an induction.

You might have had a three-hour labour because it was an induction, but it might have only been three hours because it was an induction.

So if you're kind of basing your expectation for second birth on a labour that did have kind of interventions in it, it isn't always a reliable kind of measure.

But you know what, I agree and I don't agree.

I mean, I agree with you, it's worth going through those distinctions.

But take, for example, somebody who has a planned cesarean, zero labour, zero contractions because of a breach baby, right?

Even they will have a quick second labour.

So why?

Why is that?

When I say quick, quick by comparison, I call they somewhere between a second and a first in my experience.

So even if you're right, it's worth looking a little bit at to manage expectations.

That was that you can say your labour was governed by a chemical drip.

So it is worth drawing some attention to it.

But I'd still say ultimately all second time mothers listening to this podcast should consider the bare bones of the biology, which is whether you've even experienced a contraction.

They are a mother.

So first of all, they've got no break.

They've got no, there's no break that that phrase of that Indian phrase of when a baby arrives to people are born mother and the baby.

So she's she's moved through an awful lot of stuff just by having a child.

And there's a lot of elemental inhibition in the first labour, which is very natural.

It's why traditional cultures, hardcore primitive cultures have an accompanying of the woman with the first time mother because she's going through an initiation right.

She would not be left alone.

Second time mothers go into the jungle alone because everybody knows there's the biology, but there's also the mother is just not needing to go through.

What is it we're going through first time we're about to step into motherhood.

So there's that kind of little bit more vigilance, caution and oh, I'm crossing a boundary.

I'm crossing into a new life.

It's crossing a big river into a new life.

Second time, even the breach mother who's not had a single contraction will jump in.

Her body will jump in because she's raised.

She's done that bit.

So you've already removed quite a lot of the things that hold a first labour maybe back.

So even if you have had a complicated birth, I would first time or even no labour at all, I would still say there is very, very good reason to be very, very confident that your body will still, roughly speaking, get on with the job.

Here's the thing.

Here's what I want to say.

Second time birth and subsequent birth, mothers are able to follow the feeling as they feel it.

That's what they're doing.

Whereas first time, there's so much preemptive strike.

There's so much anxiety that's at its worst, anticipation at its least worst.

It's still getting ahead of your body, timing it, watching it.

How am I doing?

How are my exams?

Partners assessing you, midwives assessing you.

This constant sense of being plotted on a graph.

Yeah, like an external measure.

Second time you're doing beans on toast.

You're not interested.

So what are you doing?

You're coming in really cleanly and concisely into the feeling and the feeling alone.

So the mother last night, she texted both of us and said, OK, having some grumbles, but I know that could be days yet.

So she's already letting the, she's not getting ahead of herself.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I replied back.

Dwell there.

Enjoy that.

Lovely.

Isn't it clever?

Isn't it clever the way it just does it itself?

That's just not get ahead.

It's just marvellous, the cleverness that it begins all by itself.

And she knows this time not to get ahead of herself.

She goes to bed without us having, whereas the first time, mother, we will have to really say go to bed.

Yeah.

So then she sends Michelle a text in the night saying about four in the morning saying, definitely got a bit of rhythm now, but I don't want anyone, don't need anyone.

So she's just letting it lead her.

And then an hour after that, she's got more what I call booth to it.

I always tell my second time, it's going to have like base to the feeling.

It's like the first one that you feel, I think I said this to you, that is got, I call it the boofy one.

Well, no, it was that I called you, I told you it was the...

Oh, you used a great word, doozy.

I was taught this by an American woman who said, oh, that was a doozy, but maybe it will fade off.

And I looked up doozy, not knowing what a doozy was, and it's big wave in America and California speak.

And I do think that's a really good rule of thumb for second time, that when you get the biggie, and what do we mean the biggie, it's that kind of knees give way a little bit, lean very forcefully on the kitchen table and oh, that.

From that point, there is no, whereas first time, you could have that feeling and it might peter off.

Second time, that's the baby coming through the sleeve of the cervix.

That's the point of no return.

And it pretty much always pans out from that point.

So I always tell my mother, both partners, just up to that point, you can comfortably distract or pretend distract with your toddler or your day, lean, hot water bottle, cook, stir, read a story, whatever you're doing.

In most cases, it will be very manageable till that point.

And that's the thing I noticed most about second time.

It kind of flips quite suddenly.

It doesn't seem to sort of go on and on.

It's kind of quite easy and then it's not.

Yeah.

Don't you find that?

It's like there's 180 degrees and so you can't miss it.

I suppose that could potentially make people a bit anxious thinking, oh gosh, then how do I get to hospital?

But that's the thing I think it can self-fulfill when you go to hospital because your body will go and apply a break actually, a bit of a break.

Whereas if you have a home birth, that's what makes it so ideal because you just literally one minute you're leaning on the side kitchen table, quite fine with a hot water bottle and still doing some colouring with your child or something.

And next minute you're sort of, oh, that was a biggie.

And I just want to be in my bedroom actually, thanks.

And from then the body will release itself.

It will just do it.

I think that's something to really know and just get clear for people.

You can really come back to biology second time because you can just literally let the body lead.

Yeah, and your only job is to just to follow it.

That's it.

That's all you got to do second time.

You don't need to be timing it and measuring it.

How did that feel for you when you did that?

When you had those, can you remember?

Yeah, I do.

I mean, again, I'd say it was very lucky we were giving birth at home because at the point that that happened, there's categorically no way I'd have even made it up the road like by the time the baby was born.

So it was, it was weak.

I've had sort of two quite swift labors myself.

But yeah, that second time, my favourite Natalie tip ever that I think actually was in our first episode was the hot water bottle pain relief tip.

I just think it's incredible.

Hot water bottle on the front, tins machine on the back, and that was me happy for the vast, vast, vast majority of the labour.

And again, I suppose I'm sort of an anomaly in that I've essentially been preparing for my second birth for five and a half years quite intensely, which probably most people hadn't been.

But again, just that, I think that the one, from taking it kind of from a personal perspective, the thing that I wanted, the only thing that I wanted from my second birth in comparison to my first birth, which I think kind of at the crux of it is what a lot of people want, is I just wanted everyone to trust me.

That was it.

That was the only thing I wanted.

I was like, actually, I want them to trust me.

If I say this isn't right, I want you to believe me.

If I say this is it, I want you to believe me.

And that's what I didn't have first time.

I felt doubted, even though in hindsight, yes, I was completely right.

And the trust that I had in myself was completely correct.

But yeah, that was all I wanted the second time.

That was essentially what my entire birth plan was, was just like, just trust me.

And then spent almost the entire labour completely on my own in my bedroom, actually in the same spot.

So Natalie runs pregnancy yoga.

And I don't know, in lockdown, which is when I gave birth, it was on Zoom.

And actually, literally where I'm sitting there recording this podcast is where, there's like this tiny nook of my bedroom, there's not much space to do yoga in our house.

This is where I did that pregnancy yoga.

And this is the exact spot that I spent like up until the last like 15 minutes of labour when I dived in a pool.

But this is was like the exact sort of quiet space.

Sitting on a ball, leaning over the chair, and then standing up during the waves, surges, contractions, and then sitting back down again in between.

And that was it.

And I think second time, don't you think, because you can be led by the feeling, you much more easily understand the syncopated rhythm of it, that it's this very kind of, and so then you're more accepting, then there's less fight and more flow, because you just get it, but it's very mechanistic.

It is the first time, it's just sadly, there's so much disturbance that we end up not, and we so much preemptive strike, get in there quick and assess it.

So I want to go back to something that you just said.

I thought, now let's imagine that you didn't plan to stay at home, and you had gone in.

So what would have happened was that you would have had to have gone probably two hours before when you're starting to get that feeling.

Of it being a bit stronger, but it doesn't get markedly stronger.

So you're not really in labour.

So you would have gone in and they would have checked you.

If they had to, they probably wouldn't check you.

But they'd say, oh, early days yet.

And I remember so many people being told this, go and sit in Costa.

Now that is a really strange concept to be now in a public space.

Not being in established labour, but everybody's saying in a minute, in a minute, in a minute, you will be in a minute.

Now that's quite like looking down from the trapeze wire.

It's like, it's not trapeze wire, what do you call it?

High wire.

It's a bit like an immanence that one doesn't really want to know about, that you're about, and you're in a public space.

So you can be put on an antenatal ward or be pacing up and down.

So how many women, as we're speaking right now, are in this situation right across the country?

Because let's remember, home birth rates are still small compared.

If every second time mum understood how much easier her life would be, if she would just...

Because you can imagine, you've gone in and it's building, but it isn't really it.

Now you can then self-fulfill, as I just said, and create a much bigger, make a meal of it.

Because why?

There's a little bit of adrenaline in there now.

And whereas what you did was you could say, Oh, thank God I didn't do that because when it happened, it could happen.

But it happened because you were in the situation when there was nothing to disturb you.

So we have to put ourselves to get the maximum agility and capability out of our instinctive body.

One needs to think pragmatically and logistically to create the circumstances that match our body's natural competence.

That's what's missing.

There's so little, and there's some amazing home birth teams now, and thankfully it's going up all the time.

And as I said earlier, it's not for everybody being at home, but I do feel we need to step up and go, okay, but what's the reality?

What is the reality of the situation?

I have an uncomplicated, healthy baby, healthy body, healthy pregnancy.

What are the circumstances that, the setting and support that match that health?

Yeah.

And you know, and you don't have to stay at home.

If it didn't, if it was longer, you just go in and get, or you suddenly felt you wanted to go to hospital, go.

But like I always say, why not just book yourself a midwife to come to you, just in case, even if you want first in your mind a hospital birth, just book that midwife, just so that you've got her there, so that when you're on the loo, and suddenly you go, oh my God, you're not alone.

If the baby came in a rush or something, you know, it makes total, and that isn't being, you know, people who are completely like, I would never have a birth at home.

Well, yes, but in your other areas of your life, you would think logistically, you would think appropriate.

You know, it's appropriate, because nobody talks about that, but it's second time can be sudden.

So therefore, you wouldn't leave yourself high and dry in other areas.

No, no, exactly.

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Now, back to the podcast.

And so from the perspective then, let's say either that mum you were talking about a minute ago, who knew she wanted to have an epidural, or somebody that maybe has complexities of pregnancy or health complications, that they have gone, yeah, I think it's still going to be like going into spontaneous labour.

So I'm not starting labour in hospital.

How can they, if that's the kind of informed decision that they've come to, how do you manage the triage bit, the hospital bit, if that is the right choice for them on the day?

You just really landed me in it.

I would say it's my hardest thing.

It is hard, and it is hard, but that's it.

And acknowledging that it's hard, but there must be things that we can do.

To minimize the stress, you've got to minimize the adrenaline in such a situation, for starters, it goes back to the listening.

So I remember this third time, mother, a few years ago, I went around there and she was hardly having anything.

And she just said, I just can't do it here.

I just can't.

My two kids are listening.

I want to go in.

And there's no way I'd talk her out of that and go, are you sure that we're not in labor?

So I just thought she must know, she must know.

So I think the first thing is this, if that person still wants to go to hospital, just listen very attentively to themselves, even if they're going to hospital, be very, very, very cued in to the feelings as we've said.

They will usually give you the accurate information.

So if you're, if you are the type of person, I just feel safer in the hospital.

You won't probably mind hanging around in the costa sort of thing, and you'll have mechanisms set up.

So you'll have your ear pods that you'll be listening to you doing a lovely hit the birth and download or something.

You might have a shawl over your head and you might, your husband might, your partner might step you up in the corner of a coffee shop, somewhere nearby the hospital, where you can still slow deep breathe and be it.

I was, you know, I love my instant tenting with a shawl or something, might be your, you know, so you could literally have practical measures like that.

We had somebody earlier in the year who lived quite far from hospital, absolutely determined to go to hospital.

And so Michelle and her, they just met outside and they went for a little walk up and then they did with good, safe, prepared support.

You can feel okay, you know, she was okay.

And that was probably better than rushing in at the last minute, pushing in a car, you know, we'll say so that so gets, but do you know, I even with a good doula, I know some women who would be as a good experienced doula with you would be just as happy doing the last minute rush, as long as they've got somebody with them.

Yeah.

So I think listening to your body, certainly I'm finding hospitals are getting better and better at fast tracking, second time mum.

So what was happening, you know, they were still insisting on vaginal examinations and nonsense like that, even when somebody is plainly pushing, that was still going on even five years ago.

Yeah.

And now I'm finding that less and less, that there seems to be more of a, so do you just maybe think of something, why not put on the top of your birth plan every second time I'm listening to this, this thing to this, trust me.

That was on the top of my birth plan.

That was it.

That was basically it.

And what three exclamation marks have it, that's going to wake up any triage person because if they don't do that, that looks a bit weird, doesn't it?

Because if you've actually somebody's written, trust me, and then you go and say, get on your back, I need to put my hands in you and do a vaginal technical, I don't believe you.

That's going to feel really weird, you know?

Whereas the mother's, if she's got there, or they've got there and they've felt themselves to be ready, then that needs to be believed.

So you can minimize by first of all going in, your body will tell you, if you're somebody who's anxiously wants to be in hospital, you will go in on time.

And you'll distract yourself, even though you might not be in labour yet, you'll find a way, you'll find a nook.

Even if you're on antenatal, and you get given a bed on the antenatal ward, I think most second time parents, they won't get so distracted or so disturbed by the ambience and everything.

So there's that.

And I think that still kicks in second time, whether it's hospital or home, is this take no prisoners trust.

I think when a mother's in her flow state, that's what happened to Arentcha with her, with this lovely, she wants her epidural, but then she finds her flow.

She knows what it feels like to meet a baby and she's so joyous about that, but that can feed her confidence still.

It's like, you know, bring it on, bring it on.

There's a much more of that bring it on factor, I think.

Even for the fearful, even if somebody had a really difficult first birth, I find there's quite a lot of magic second.

They seem something comes in, they get it and they accept it and they go with it.

To go back to her, it was connecting to the child.

That was the thing.

So what you have got a lot of experience of now is a baby and a child and you have got living proof that you understand the call and response that is being a mother.

The daily round of listening to a baby, responding to a toddler, wiping a face, cuddling, putting to sleep, changing a nappy, da-da-da.

There's, it's such a different, you're in such a different place to your working self, shifting to motherhood, which is still yet to accustom itself to all those minute by minute responses that you have to do as a mother, don't you?

You just have to kind of get on with it and be flexible and flow.

So they've got that.

So they shouldn't be super under-comfortable.

I didn't manage it last time, so I won't this time.

There's so much natural, intuitive guidance now.

And she tells me, so that's what Anne Rancher does.

I just said to her, listen to your child.

She needs you.

She needs you.

The second I said her child needed her, she was on it.

She was like, she listened.

She stopped panicking, because she didn't think she could push.

And she thought it was something she had to do to push.

That's often a big fear, actually, how if you've not pushed for some reason, because you got an assisted delivery or you had a cesarean, often it's the kind of taboo thing.

It's like, yeah, but I don't do that bit.

I haven't done that bit.

As if somehow that exempts you from the, you know.

And I said, no, but that's the least bit you're going to have to think about now.

You know, you know that you have to trust yourself with a child and it's the same.

You want to meet your baby.

Yeah.

Let that lead, you know?

I'm trying to think of this.

There's so many, I got really excited talking about this, thinking about this in advance, because I was thinking, gosh, it's so much that's unexplored.

That's what's so astounding.

We talk about birth just as birth.

And actually, there are so many quite stark differences between, that's why I wanted to do a whole episode on it.

So I was like, actually, yeah, some stuff is relevant to all births, but actually second time is a completely unique experience or a very different experience to a first birth.

And you said to me, like, how, what would you do to prepare?

And I was thinking about that.

And I was thinking, oh, you know, going back to the generics or, you know, let's just lump second time.

I mean, I was for the bit self-conscious if a second term mum comes to the first, comes to a birth preparation group with me, with a lot of first time parents, because I don't feel I can address their needs as clearly is, really, is that this different, you know?

And they, of course, because of the amount I've had a difficult first experience, they willingly put themselves in that I know nothing camp, you know?

And you've got to be careful of that because they can, it's like, well, I know nothing.

I might as well go back to the beginning again.

No, no.

We're not using your greatest resource here.

Yeah.

Yes, because even if it's gone, even if the first time became more complicated or didn't go in the way that you wanted or expected, that's really valuable knowledge.

To know what led to that or to know what that experience felt like or to know what sort of questions you might ask or whatever it is.

Like, all of that is really a valuable experience.

We had a group recently and everybody was first time and open and interested, excited about getting prepared.

And there was one second time mother who had had an epidural first time.

And I thought she was the least of the group that was going to be willing to be open to birth at home.

Because she'd almost enjoyed it.

Yeah, I thought, well, you've had an epidural.

She had a simple birth as a result, even with an epidural.

And she kind of got to the end and she said, I just kind of know what I didn't need and what I didn't need.

And she just knew the bits that she was missing last time that she now wanted.

And now she's having her baby at home now.

And she's decided to even know, you know, you could argue, well, that's brave.

You know, she had a good experience with an epidural.

Why does she want to change the format?

You know, but she could feel it did.

She said it felt a bit disconnected and she didn't like that feeling.

So she was already ahead of the game.

The other thing to say is then for the preparation you can go for can be, to a degree, have a level of irrelevance for you and too generic.

So I would say, going to your question when you said, well, what should people do?

I think every second time parents should probably do that research.

I talk about in How to Have a Baby, which is find three people, do a survey.

And I would say one of them being even a VBAC or something, or like, you know, like find three friends or a colleague, or even if you prefer, if you didn't have to go on a generic social media site, but something preferably first hand and simply listen to their story and then jot down like, well, almost like, well, what did they all three?

You have to have three because the only way you're going to see common denominator.

And then just copy them.

That's the first thing.

And get a really complicated, the best would be to have a VBAC, because then if you get a VBAC and they're still doing the same thing, they never even had a labour or they have a complicated, but they still ended up with the same result as the easy first home birth followed by the easy second home birth.

You're going to get a mixture of experiences.

That's the first thing I do.

Basically, research, like, you know, do market research on it.

And then once you've got clear on what you want, you're going to already be able to sort of maybe more tailor your more official preparation.

So then it's like, well, do I really need another NCT course?

I know they do refreshes, but it may be that you just want to really focus on breathwork or hypnobirthing.

It may be that you think you just want a doula that's all going to be like a lawyer.

And I call it like that's what I'll draw you a lot now, like, you know, to navigate your rights because you thought, well, actually, I didn't know what to do physically.

I just felt like they forced me into an induction.

I didn't want an induction.

So it might be you just want advocacy.

So you can you can tailor your preparation.

Once you understand the birth basics, don't jump in with the I'll just step on the standard bandwagon, because then you're going to end up with the standard experience.

And I do think 100% yoga birth of some kind.

So active birth class, yoga birth class on a regular basis, because then probably what we do want to talk about is the experience of two is you get that weekly chance to be with that pregnancy in a way that sometimes you can't be.

Yeah, women often worry, oh, I haven't spent enough time on this pregnancy.

Well, that sacred hour or two, once a week is the time to be with that pregnancy.

And so that will give you so much in terms of like the quiet presence, the chance to connect to that pregnancy will give you probably 50% of what you need.

Yeah.

And there's, I mean, there is actually a definite perk to almost like the irrelevance of a second pregnancy where you're like, I don't know how many weeks I am, the baby's just going to come out.

And so that sort of nonchalance can actually be kind of beneficial, whereas like first time you're like, right, I'm 33 plus two days pregnant, the baby's going to come on this day.

And it's so all consuming that in some ways, the kind of irrelevance of that second time when you're not.

I realised something actually, I just realised that when we go round and we do the go round in my class, I suddenly realised that second time was, they get this kind of, oh, I'm experienced.

You know, like they realised by listening to the group.

Yeah.

Oh, I do know something.

Yeah.

It was only by being in that group that they get to realise in the mother community that they actually have got something, that they trust themselves very quickly because they're like, oh, I have been through this and I've got nothing to fear.

You know, I'm an experienced mother.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

But then that protected space that you mentioned, like even if it is just an hour or so a week, that just reminder of like, hang on, yeah, we're gonna, me and my baby, we're gonna do this and they're gonna come and it's gonna be two or three or however many.

And that just checking in moments are really valuable and actually putting in the time and the effort to address the first experience to prepare for what you want kind of second time is still really important and and really valuable, I think the final thing then on the kind of the birthfront.

Now, whenever I ask anybody that's expecting their second baby, you know, what is it that you're most concerned about this time?

Top of the list is always what do I do with my first born child or the children that I already have?

So from a kind of practical and emotional perspective, what do you what do you find people tend to do with their older children?

Or how does it kind of play out with having older children around labour, birth, that whole experience?

First of all, because it, as you say, is so universal, that concern.

And let's just remember why it is because it's a biological imperative.

And I kind of wake them up to them.

Not it's not a fussing.

It is absolutely totally valid and appropriate.

And probably the key to the whole birth, actually, because I remind them there are the cave woman self, which is in the labour first in your mind is my child safe from the predators.

So there's this kind of like, is my toddler going to be safe?

Right.

So it's a massive deal.

And women weren't even going to labour if they they kind of feel their second, their first child isn't safe or first two children aren't safe.

So it's a massive thing and you need to give it some thought.

If you're going to hospital, of course, you need your childcare plan quick, smart, ready because I remember going to this birth a couple of years ago, we tried to encourage such first-class dish, first birth.

And we said, have you considered birth at home?

No, don't want that.

Don't want that.

Fine.

Okay.

Well, and then we went through all this.

And it's interesting how we still were thinking, we still thought there was going to be this time.

And then the childcare would have to be two hours away.

We had said it, but it was quite plainly too late.

And the baby came at home.

And that's fine.

It was all well.

But my point is, if you're going to have childcare, it has to be prompt.

And equally, I've seen this problem where people pack their children off too early.

And then that also has that effect of watching yourself too much.

So you kind of want what you'd call responsive childcare, either parents who can turn up and it feels very natural to go to the park or clear off for the day with the toddler.

There'll be existing nursery arrangements that might solve that.

I think also not to worry too much is the second point I make, which is it tends to work itself out.

So I'm seeing more and more of a pattern of second birth happening in the day when the child's at nursery.

That happens very commonly now.

So this business of it all happens at night.

I would say probably less and less so, because biologically your body lets go when they know they're safe in the nursery or with the childminder, so that's going to happen.

Or they're in bed.

So mostly your body's very logical and it will do it when the baby's cared and the toddler's cared for.

Then comes the question of, yeah, but what if they wake up or what if they just come home?

Or what if the inevitable, I see women labouring in the night and then 6 a.m.

comes and you hear the toddler going, mom, mom.

And that probably people really worry about that, that if I'm needed, how will I concentrate?

And you just need to run that scenario with partners and say, well, if that means you not being in the room at the moment, sometimes that would need adjusting to, because a mother might not be able to deal with that distraction of a two-year-old just as she's pushing, for example.

And if that requires a partner going and sitting, doing the breakfast and pouring cereal and not bringing them in and going, oh, what do I do?

They need to be briefed on like, that is not a good time to bring a child in.

But equally, not to be frightened of a child seeing a neighbour.

Because I don't know why we're all so anxious about that.

Yeah, I think that's the thing, is that we have to remember that birth is only weird because we've been conditioned to think it's weird.

When you're three or four or five or whatever, that's as normal as going for a poo or as normal.

Like, it's not, they have absolutely no preconception or media influence over this.

And so, some was here when we were in labour, and I mean, he was fast asleep.

But that was one thing that was just fine, was that actually, after speaking to lots of people who had had their children at birth, that really settled my mind on like, okay, I mean, he'll be completely fine.

It's a Western modern artifice, like, what do you call it, like an artificial anxiety, because actually, you're not even talking more than 80, 90 years that would be in the picture.

So we're talking 200,000 years that the children would have been pregnant.

So what on earth, who do we think we are that we can suddenly go, we must cleanse them from the picture.

They must be, you know, there's no way they can see the trauma that is in there.

Are you, don't be ridiculous.

Actually, what it brings us to is the true natural nature of birth, because of course it used to happen in front of family all the time.

And if it wasn't, if it was too distracting, the mother herself would have taken herself to the quietest room where she wasn't disturbed.

But this idea that a child or children will be traumatized, I actually hear people use the word a lot, traumatized by seeing me in pain.

Well, where have we got to?

It's like, if that's how we regard it, then, you know, that's a shame, isn't it?

And you're going to basically pay that message forward through generations, whereas actually, if you think it the other way, I'll give you a quick scenario.

As I was with this family, we're two little girls, and we created a chain gang of cold flannel, where I would ring the flannel out and then pass it to the next child and the next child, and she would put the cold flannel on her mum's forehead during the contraction.

They quietly sat there in their little night dresses with their feet sticking out on the sofa, you know, weeing the little doulas, and it was beautiful.

And they were bothered, and the mother's roaring and roaring, like waaah, that, you know.

Now, why weren't they bothered?

Because when she comes to her rest, they are utterly attuned that a mother who's just stressed and does not look calm in between, they're so attuned to what is going on that if you have a four-year-old and you're in a mood, they'd say to you, mum, what's wrong?

You know, they know what energy is, right?

So if a mother is making rawly moody noises, but then goes quiet and smiley, they know there's nothing wrong.

They know there's nothing wrong.

And in this situation, she got into the pool, gave birth in one push, and then the cord broke, which I've never seen that before, and it kind of broke.

And the mother slightly panicked and went, oh, oh, and the midwife was amazing.

I went, no, no, no, it's fine.

It's fine.

Don't worry.

I'm camping.

It's no problem.

No problem.

She calmed down.

I went to get the breakfast with the two little girls, and it was the first real children's birth I'd been to.

And I said, oh, that was exciting, isn't it?

Your sister arriving.

What do you think?

Something like that.

And they went, mommy was a bit scared, wasn't she?

And I thought they were going to say, when she'd been making her hours worth of wishing noises.

And they meant that bit when they saw her get, because that was genuinely scared, because they didn't mention the birth, they were like, yeah, she was a baby, my sister was born.

Well, that was no big deal.

And I've never seen a child ever get distressed.

The only time I've seen a child, for want of a better word, play up, start getting mum, mum, mum, mum, was when a mother was worried for her child so much that she said, are you okay, honey?

Are you okay, honey?

Are you okay, honey?

Then they will get a bit worried.

You know, if you, do you know what I mean?

When the child is wondering, why are you saying that to me?

Whereas if you just go into yourself and stay with the feeling, in my experiences, they stay very calm, you know.

And then going to the how to introduce a child to the new baby.

I had a really good tip about a year ago.

That was a hospital birth and she came home and she left the baby, you could do this for home birth as well.

She gave the baby to her mother or her husband, went and met her other child in a room without a baby and actually spent an hour with him.

Which is not something people would think of doing, but I thought it was very interesting.

So it's very stagey in a sense, you've got this baby that you're aching to be holding in the other room, but it gave this child a chance to see that nothing had changed.

It was quite miraculous, actually.

And then granny came in, old dad said, do you want to meet your brother?

And it was almost more at this child's pace, like it was coming into the child's perspective rather than, I mean, it can't always be like this, but rather than they come and meet your new brother and sister, isn't it lovely?

Look, look, look.

And often they'll go, oh, can I watch Peppa Pig now, please?

Yeah.

What they want is to reassurance that not much has changed.

You're not going to convince them completely because everything's changed.

But start them off down that path of like, mom's here, mom's the same.

Yeah.

I definitely think that alleviating any expectation on how you want them to respond, not just at the initial meeting, but literally like over the first few months of that new life, and not expecting them to want to hold the baby.

And they might want to hold the baby.

Otis didn't hold Lockie for five weeks, didn't come in a room with him for five weeks, and didn't hold him for eight weeks.

And now, a year on, they're like great friends.

That really just alleviated like any stress as well, because I was never worried that one day they would talk to each other.

But he used to stick his ear defenders on and go in a different room, because he was like, oh, the baby is loud.

But by relieving that pressure, I think that was like a really helpful tip that we were going to give him.

I mean, let's address what is going on.

Why do we have that expectation?

There's a lot of anxiety around it.

And actually, that's where the journey of parenthood is such a big starting point.

This, how should my child be?

It's like, that's about four podcasts worth.

Like, where are we supposed to be?

How is my child supposed to react?

You know, going right into development generally.

Oh, I suppose what parents might be thinking is, oh, if our child doesn't respond positively and affectionately to their sibling, might that mean they're an unkind child or some, almost that basic?

I think I did the same thing, but it's such an imposition.

I mean, you wouldn't expect that on, on adults.

You wouldn't rush them through something and go, come on, come on, come on, come on.

You know, yeah, feel this, feel this, feel this.

You know, and I have seen, you know, including myself.

Oh, look at your little sister.

You know, that kind of thing, which is very stirring.

And a lot of children, definitely certain temperament, certainly my child was having none of that.

Oh my gosh.

You know, and actually it was awful.

I really shouldn't, I mean, I really had to learn everything through that sibling arrival.

It was so painful.

And I'm having a lot of it at the moment with parents.

And I want to name check a wonderful mother I've been working with called Kim, who has discovered these lovely tips.

So let's share it on here, because it's just amazing.

So lots of ignoring, like the ear defender thing with her little girl, with the new baby, lots of, can we send her away now?

And when's the bin man coming to pick the baby up?

You know, that kind of thing.

There's a lot of errors.

This mother, amazingly accepting of all that.

Interesting, which we haven't addressed.

I will get back to this, but how the in-laws, the mother and grandparents can put a lot of pressure, or you know, you don't want to tolerate that.

So say the toddler is being irritable or nasty.

There's a lot of pressure from people around you that you have a nice child.

Yeah.

Why are they not being kind to the baby?

And that often gets in the way.

And if you then say, well, mom, to your own mom, you know, I just want to give them some space to do that.

That, the older generation seems to really struggle with that.

They won't, like, why are you letting them get away with that?

That's a naughty child who might be, you know, that's awful.

Anyway, so this person understood everything.

She was amazing.

But still, it was hard.

It was hard.

And then she found this amazing book called Attachment Play.

And in this, I talk about her in my book, Aletha Salter.

She recommends saying to the child, why don't you get, can you get me four toys?

And they often have a theme, it might be four cats or if you've got four, doesn't have to be four teddies and so on.

And then let's play with the, so, you know, of course, very quickly, it becomes mom, dad, baby and me.

And you just let them play.

It's effectively a little therapy session.

They start to, she said it was unbelievable how this little girl started to put her feelings into the toys and let them breathe.

And she would put the baby on the other side of the room and put herself next to the mom.

And then she'd be able to slowly bring, you know, and then dad was right over another corner.

And she and her mom was the toy version would be together, you know, and she was able to explore all these feelings.

And they just played for cats every day for cats.

And they'd have, and in the end, when I got there, which was about a week after this game had begun, there was a cat party on the sofa because the cats were all together having a party.

Now that's interesting, isn't it?

Because now she's managed to integrate the cats, the new cat, herself as a cat, the mummy cat, and they're all lined up on the sofa.

And I wanted to look more into this, this therapy of play, allowing them to explore their feelings through these games where you just, the mother was just sat on the sofa breastfeeding while she played with her cats.

And rather than, come and have a story, come and have a story, quality time, look, come and love the child, come and love your sibling, come and, you know, thinking who's the mother, all with guilt ridden and feeling so guilty, guilty, guilty.

And like, and then trying to go to the park and have a nice time with them.

And oh, so hard, you know, I think one has to just sit back a bit.

That's, yeah.

Oh, that sounds amazing.

I love that.

That's a great tip.

Now I'm aware that we could literally talk about this for hours, but we should probably wrap up at some point.

So the final question then that we ask at the end of every podcast, we normally ask if you could give a pregnant or birthing person one thing, what would it be?

But let's go specifically for somebody expecting their second or subsequent baby can be a real gift or a kind of hypothetical concept or feeling.

What would you give them?

Yeah, I'd be really old fashioned and make baby wearing specialists now laugh their socks off or will connect just because it meant so much to me.

I will connect sling.

Yeah, you're going to have to explain what this is because I don't know what this is.

A sling, I mean a sling more generally, but a sling so perfect that you just drop that tiny one in it so beautifully wrapped onto you or so that it means you are free of that, you know, and it's just invaluable.

I mean, nowadays, everybody's got sling, but I think to understand that if you have any issues with your old baby or something backache-wise, or get on it and get, you're gonna need a excellent sling.

So you're gonna need to, because it's life-changing.

Yeah, it really is.

I mean, I could talk about slings all day as well, but yeah, a definite must-have, I think particularly second time.

Amazing, thank you so much.

Okay, bye-bye.

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